Just wondering but...

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Just wondering but...

Post  Andrenden on Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:00 am

Is there any reason house contents are not saved? If you add more materia I cant collect them all without that extra space! lol Very Happy

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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  psxlover on Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:54 am

Yes there is, more saved items == bigger save code
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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Andrenden on Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:03 am

Then is that code reaching its length limits? Personally i'd take items in the house saving over remembering the fact i've learned every skill on every charcter, as it is now I'll use maybe 3-4 max and wont touch the rest.

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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Zergling_man on Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:51 pm

Well, as I've stated somewhere else, I'm in favour of having level 1980 with max gold, and maybe a specific set of items, alias to a very short code. It'd have a value of, say, FF (... I totally didn't choose that based on the map's name, but it fits), then the name checksum multiplied in, and that's it. Since it doesn't have to specify exactly everything, it can just say "this code is maxed out". The items are a lot less of a consideration, since even before we're getting things like set items being added, there can still be some variation, and it'd be easier to just leave them in fully defined instead of making a whole bunch of aliases. (Although if you take item position out of the code, and have them rearrange automatically, that could shorten it a little. Or does it already do that?)
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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  psxlover on Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:26 pm

And what would happen when you don't everyone maxed out? You'd need to have different save mechanisms and have a way to distinguish them and ...
The order that the items get saved determines their place in the inventory. Even if a slot is empty it's being saved.
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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Zergling_man on Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:51 am

See, my entire point is, codes save the individual level of every character, your gold amount, all your items, and... I'm not sure if short saves anything else. I don't really care about long, since it can do the same thing pretty easily.
When there is a defined, obvious state, such as max level on every character, and max gold, you don't need to specify exactly what each value is. You can just say "this code has 1980 levels". Since there is only one possible combination for that, you can have a little function that goes "oh, this code is really really short, that means it's an alias. This one says... '1980 levels and max gold'. So, assign every hero to level 99, and apply 10mil (or whatever) gold".

Any codes that don't meet these criteria would function exactly as they do now. It'd just be this one case, which is what everyone is working towards, and eventually stops at, that would have a significantly shorter code, meaning a lot easier to port around. Of course, there's hardly much point overall, but it does just feel nicer.

Erm, actually, thinking about it more closely, it wouldn't be a huge shortening, but it would cut the code down to about 3/4 length.
... Another thing you can do, is assign only the best items an ID in this. Since a player with max gold and level doesn't really care about a level 5 helmet. If they -really- do, then you could make it optional, so anyone who doesn't fit this formula doesn't lose anything, but anyone who does gains much.
Anyway, so the code could have less space for items, since it could only assign artifact items and certain key items, like elixirs, maybe hero drinks, blood nectars, mainly stuff you can't buy from shops. Or stuff that you have to do a large portion of the questline to reach. (Since you have max gold.)
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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Andrenden on Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:39 am

Zergling_man wrote:See, my entire point is, codes save the individual level of every character, your gold amount, all your items, and... I'm not sure if short saves anything else. I don't really care about long, since it can do the same thing pretty easily.
When there is a defined, obvious state, such as max level on every character, and max gold, you don't need to specify exactly what each value is. You can just say "this code has 1980 levels". Since there is only one possible combination for that, you can have a little function that goes "oh, this code is really really short, that means it's an alias. This one says... '1980 levels and max gold'. So, assign every hero to level 99, and apply 10mil (or whatever) gold".

Any codes that don't meet these criteria would function exactly as they do now. It'd just be this one case, which is what everyone is working towards, and eventually stops at, that would have a significantly shorter code, meaning a lot easier to port around. Of course, there's hardly much point overall, but it does just feel nicer.

Erm, actually, thinking about it more closely, it wouldn't be a huge shortening, but it would cut the code down to about 3/4 length.
... Another thing you can do, is assign only the best items an ID in this. Since a player with max gold and level doesn't really care about a level 5 helmet. If they -really- do, then you could make it optional, so anyone who doesn't fit this formula doesn't lose anything, but anyone who does gains much.
Anyway, so the code could have less space for items, since it could only assign artifact items and certain key items, like elixirs, maybe hero drinks, blood nectars, mainly stuff you can't buy from shops. Or stuff that you have to do a large portion of the questline to reach. (Since you have max gold.)
I'd perfer is that long code saved house items instead of hero levels/skills if it could be assigned like you said *with everyone getting their magic 1980 maxed combination* As it is now i've maxed everything I needed and think I even have a ring of the wise or w/e for selling in a next content update so that -SLNG code is the last one I will have made. Maybe turning -SLNG into a max level only feature using a shortened combination for max stuff would allow the extra to save house content instead of remembering everyskill i've learned.

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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Zergling_man on Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:15 pm

I'm cool with some of what you've said, but I'm not going to agree wholeheartedly.
Main things I disagree with:
- Adding content to long only. As it is, the long save/load is purely for convenience. I believe it was intended purely to be this when it was implemented.
- Max level only. I understand the idea of combining it with the aliasing of the maxed out code, but I'm happy with doing that currently.

As I began though, this is a cool idea. Just not necessarily one I'm willing to do as yet. Perhaps, instead, have max level will always alias, and max gold will also shorten when it happens, and at each point, more other stuff is saved. First thing would be house items. Second... Maybe the rest of the house items? Depends how much space items take up, and how much can easily be made available with these shortcuts.
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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Andrenden on Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:13 pm

I said add it to long only because the only real arguement to anything was that it lengthens the code, well if you had a max level combination like you say it would shorten the code, then the house items would lengthen it back again. The reason I didn't mention the short code is because it might not shorten as much as it would add on *considering that code just says you have 99 of all class and does not learn the skills/upgrades for each* that currently is the only difference between the short and long. As for the max level thing, that might not be a good idea as i'm sure everyone would love to save items in their house, but who likes doing SLNG unless they have to? Then theres the matter that the long code doesnt actually help lower levels a whole hell of a lot, unless you hit 50 with each class so they could all learn their skills in which case it has become a useful tool *as you'll actually be going back to play every class since they havn't been maxed yet you wont just pick your fav/strongest*


Last edited by Andrenden on Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:18 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Zergling_man on Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:32 am

^ That last line is why I don't use long. I -master then pick out what I'm going to play and assign that one's skills.

Also, we could make two aliases: One for "this is 1980 with max gold" and one for "this is 1980 with max gold and all skills assigned". And they could be the max short/long codes.

EDIT: Suddenly I realised, we could do this a little better. I don't know if this already happens, but have a thing of, figure out what takes more space to say: "Forward, and each class has this many levels" or "backward, and each class is missing this many levels". In each case, it'd just be stating the levels with a single bit at the start that says which way around it is - which could potentially be derived from the total level, though that's not necessarily the best system.
This does mean saving can take a lot longer, but since the whole process is currently without a noticeable delay, there's no issue there, is there?
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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Karifean on Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:29 pm

I doubt that you'll be having max gold all the time. admittedly though, being able to save house items would be sweet, especially with all the materia and equipment you might wanna save. it's just not really manageable.
correct me if i'm wrong, but i think there are 242688 different combinations of what the house alone can have in its inventory you have to take into consideration. this is probably wrong, but afaik the code can save up to 255 charges and does not differentiate between items with and without charges, because that would make everything WAY too complicated.

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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Andrenden on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:17 am

Karifean wrote:I doubt that you'll be having max gold all the time. admittedly though, being able to save house items would be sweet, especially with all the materia and equipment you might wanna save. it's just not really manageable.
correct me if i'm wrong, but i think there are 242688 different combinations of what the house alone can have in its inventory you have to take into consideration. this is probably wrong, but afaik the code can save up to 255 charges and does not differentiate between items with and without charges, because that would make everything WAY too complicated.
guess that just means i'll have to get rid of boco, sealaga and wateraga materia to make room, they all have minor uses but the dmg on wateraga is low and I only used it on characters without magic to kill flan. Meanwhile Sealaga is just so random that you might get a effect that doesnt do anythinng useful. Boco I use for the haste on different characters and I don't really want to get rid of him *he will be the last to go when the update is out and I can compare whats worth keeping and whats not* but if I have to I will.

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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Karifean on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:39 am

Considering having multiple Summon Materias in one team is useless, it probably wouldn't be a big deal to not save a Summon Materia as long as someone else still has it. Save for Odin Materia maybe, considering how hard it is to obtain. Btw I had totally forgotten how awesome Quakeraga Materia is.

I wonder what the perfect team would consist of?

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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Andrenden on Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:24 am

ya Quakeraga is super strong since its not limited in its overall dmg potential *unlike Wateraga and its "cant do more then X dmg in a line"* as for perfect team... without knowing the changes coming it 9.3 its hard for me to say but i'd say get a knight *or 2* time mage, oracle and... I forget what else... and thats a good start.

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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Zergling_man on Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:43 am

8 Monks with the Masamune (I think that's the best sword?), the genji shield, that fighter's ring or whatever, and then a Quakeraga. The spirit would hold elixirs and hero drinks.

I'm aware that 6 items can take more space than the most awkward combinaion of class levels. Now... The thing with the charges. Does that mean you're wasting an incredible amount of space, since most items don't have charges? And since I can't think of anything that we can increase beyond 10ish, you could just assign another ID to each one in the save code. Yes, more work, and a little harder to manage/debug. But it cuts out a lot of space.

Oh, saving summon materia, YES. Since if you change game, and then no-one else has it, you still want it to have saved. Sure, Boco is pretty easy to get. But it still takes time. Almost exactly like the very low-end items. (Which could be melted down into gold, if that would give you an advantage. Just mention that they can repurchase them. Say it when they save, "all items below level X have been removed, and refunded 100%, in your save code. At the start of the next game, go and purchase these items again". Except if it costs a crystal shard, just leave those behind. Easier than considering whether to refund 10k, 1.5k or a shard.)


Last edited by Zergling_man on Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Unmatched left parenthesis.)
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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Karifean on Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:40 pm

Zergling_man wrote:8 Monks with the Masamune (I think that's the best sword?), the genji shield, that fighter's ring or whatever, and then a Quakeraga. The spirit would hold elixirs and hero drinks.

Replace just one of them with an Oracle and everyone else gets a buff with +140% damage. Replace one with a Knight to put armor and damage breaks on the enemy to make him less threatening. And so forth.
Also in testing I noticed that auto-attacks deal ridiculously low damage against superbosses because their armor increases with their agility, giving them near-invincibility to normal attacks. Btw Elixirs have a pretty high cooldown.

I'm aware that 6 items can take more space than the most awkward combinaion of class levels. Now... The thing with the charges. Does that mean you're wasting an incredible amount of space, since most items don't have charges? And since I can't think of anything that we can increase beyond 10ish, you could just assign another ID to each one in the save code. Yes, more work, and a little harder to manage/debug. But it cuts out a lot of space.

Nothing to increase beyond 10ish? Materia? Apart from that I thought it might be useful if we let Potions stack up to 99, ever since I noticed it actually saved up to 255 charges.
It's not like you can't bring an endless supply of Potions with you anyway. It's just more convenient to have them as a stack rather than making the player put down dozens of them on the ground next to the superboss and have the Spirit of Gaya pick up new potions every time the hero runs out.

Oh, saving summon materia, YES. Since if you change game, and then no-one else has it, you still want it to have saved. Sure, Boco is pretty easy to get. But it still takes time. Almost exactly like the very low-end items. (Which could be melted down into gold, if that would give you an advantage. Just mention that they can repurchase them. Say it when they save, "all items below level X have been removed, and refunded 100%, in your save code. At the start of the next game, go and purchase these items again". Except if it costs a crystal shard, just leave those behind. Easier than considering whether to refund 10k, 1.5k or a shard.

Still, if you're trying to beat superbosses, you don't necessarily need to save Boco Materia and rather use that slot for something more useful. But whatever, it doesn't really matter (it's not like we're going to make them unsaveable). Also, the thing with the refunding is that only half of what you paid is refunded. If we did auto-refunding it could either annoy players who paid a large amount of gold for their stuff just to have it converted into half gold upon saving, or it makes pawning items in shops inferior to just saving with them and have them converted into more gold, which is stupid.

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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Zergling_man on Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:15 pm

Karifean wrote:Replace just one of them with an Oracle and everyone else gets a buff with +140% damage. Replace one with a Knight to put armor and damage breaks on the enemy to make him less threatening. And so forth.
Avatar makes them magic immune. Which means buffs as well. (I believe so, anyway.)
Karifean wrote:Also in testing I noticed that auto-attacks deal ridiculously low damage against superbosses because their armor increases with their agility, giving them near-invincibility to normal attacks.
And yet you still do more damage that way than spells. Though if someone could run some tests here, that'd be appreciated.
Karifean wrote:Btw Elixirs have a pretty high cooldown.
You tend to have pretty high health at level 1980.

Karifean wrote:Nothing to increase beyond 10ish? Materia?
We (players) can't increase materia charges (via stacking). I'm not actually sure why I thought this was important. Possibly because it means you can control it so easily.
Karifean wrote:Apart from that I thought it might be useful if we let Potions stack up to 99, ever since I noticed it actually saved up to 255 charges.
It's not like you can't bring an endless supply of Potions with you anyway. It's just more convenient to have them as a stack rather than making the player put down dozens of them on the ground next to the superboss and have the Spirit of Gaya pick up new potions every time the hero runs out.
True dat. It certainly puts a big hole in my suggestion here.

Karifean wrote:Still, if you're trying to beat superbosses, you don't necessarily need to save Boco Materia and rather use that slot for something more useful. But whatever, it doesn't really matter (it's not like we're going to make them unsaveable).
Hmm... Some truth in that.
Karifean wrote:Also, the thing with the refunding is that only half of what you paid is refunded. If we did auto-refunding it could either annoy players who paid a large amount of gold for their stuff just to have it converted into half gold upon saving, or it makes pawning items in shops inferior to just saving with them and have them converted into more gold, which is stupid.
Fair call. But a few things to note:
1) That was a joke, in part.
2) It could be made opt-in.
3) I already stated do it for stuff that's only gold. And since it'll be all your items whether you want to sell them or not, well, all your permanent items anyway, then it's a small amount of gold at full refund... Well, I don't see the problem with that.
4) Could have a flip, low level items/high level items. Do it by detection, I guess. Once they get an epic item, have a message saying "you can save all, or shorten it a lot by not saving low-level items anymore, since you probably have enough gold to just buy them". This is a pretty poor idea, but worth a thought.
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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Andrenden on Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:30 pm

Fun fact; You can accidently remove avatar by using the spirits magic break *Found that one out the hard way on accident* Also as for Boco, I use him to escape from superbosses, you cast the summon but can still move, it gives you time to run from Omega right before your avatar wouldve faded and you get Omega Blasted instantly. Same can be done with Odin as well *since again you can move once you move it* though Odin is WAAAAAAY more offensive then defensive in that sense.
As for melee doing more dmg then spells... 97% of the 19something - 20something comes out to maybe 60 dmg an attack? but if you get the spirit on Gaya buff that lends about another 1000 onto that... closer to 100 dmg? mixed with the 1500 spell dmg from force punch on a monk and 600 wave fist from a monk your looking at a output of maybe 3000dmg in potentially 7-10 seconds of time? depending how fast your hitting anyway. However Ultima does 4000 dmg and while sorc can also deal dmg with his melee he is not magic immune at anytime, you will always be stopped or blinded ect while fighting. This means his only real dmg comes from that ultima which has a longer cooldown then monk skills and again while the monk is magic immune he can deal that melee dmg too *he lives longer also because of it* making him the better choice.If the sorc could be magic immune I will go on record saying he would outdmg a monk against high armor superbosses.

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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Zergling_man on Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:40 am

^ This is why the 8 Monk team is awesome. Because as proven many times ages ago, you -need- to be Magic Immune. Or the dispell on your spirit needs to be a lot faster. But it's impractical. As soon as you remove the debuffs, the boss replaces them, while your teammates often have to wait for cooldown. (More importantly, they must be aware. Auto-cast doesn't pick up half the time when it should, and does pick up half the time when it shouldn't.)
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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Karifean on Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:40 pm

I personally disagree. You don't need Magic Immunity because you can easily use Gaya to get rid of the debuffs if you really need to and the cooldoown on both Blind and Stop (the most significant status ailments) is high enough so that you can constantly dispel with Gaya and never have anyone in your party blinded or stopped (not to mention Stop is easily fixed by having a Ring of the Wise in 0.9.3).
Although admittedly Monks work wonders against Omega Weapon, whose spells deal so much damage that you can't really keep your HP in check without magic immunity.
Monk better than Sorcerer against high-armor bosses? I've found that using only melee attacks vs bosses doesn't seem to do anything at all, their HP regen pretty much covers it (although this is probably not true when there are multiple players or use a Fighter dedicated to auto-attacks). Sorcerer is a reliable damage dealer, with Flare and Holy dealing loads of damage in short time. He'll probably be nerfed a little bit, though...
Admittedly it's difficult to discuss this issue when 0.9.3 isn't out yet, since it comes with so many changes.

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Re: Just wondering but...

Post  Andrenden on Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:50 pm

Karifean wrote:I personally disagree. You don't need Magic Immunity because you can easily use Gaya to get rid of the debuffs if you really need to and the cooldoown on both Blind and Stop (the most significant status ailments) is high enough so that you can constantly dispel with Gaya and never have anyone in your party blinded or stopped (not to mention Stop is easily fixed by having a Ring of the Wise in 0.9.3).
Although admittedly Monks work wonders against Omega Weapon, whose spells deal so much damage that you can't really keep your HP in check without magic immunity.
Monk better than Sorcerer against high-armor bosses? I've found that using only melee attacks vs bosses doesn't seem to do anything at all, their HP regen pretty much covers it (although this is probably not true when there are multiple players or use a Fighter dedicated to auto-attacks). Sorcerer is a reliable damage dealer, with Flare and Holy dealing loads of damage in short time. He'll probably be nerfed a little bit, though...
Admittedly it's difficult to discuss this issue when 0.9.3 isn't out yet, since it comes with so many changes.
Taking Eden from his maximum 290,000 life *according to -hp on very easy* as a monk cycling my moves and cooldowns approprately I can take Eden down to the 50k range because he despawns, doing the same with sorc is 1. Harder and 2. Can only take him down maybe 50-75k from his max *So he hangs out at about 225k life = /* You may doubt that monk is doing better but monk spells are not negated by the armor it seems so as long as yo use each spell as it comes up you'll make way more easier progress then even the strongest caster atm. With monk if your not avatar'd you must use your monk dispell when blinded and only use Gaya dispell when stopped, you'll still miss alot but those few hits you do get make a difference when stacked with his spells *1500+600 whenever they come on cooldown isn't bad*. But maybe 9.3 will change that. Curious about that ring of the wise tidbit personally Surprised

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